Session notes: This room is really white.

What is the name of the person who called the session?

Catriona James (theatre maker, performer)

Who attended the session? (You can pass this piece of paper round and ask people to write their name on it.)

Michelle Perez (Theatr Iolo), Chelsey Gillard (theatre maker), Sarah Argent (freelance director/writer), Mari Hullett (2nd year Trinity St Davids Design & Production), Raidene Carter (producer), Yvonne Murphy (director, producer), Elke Garland. Mawgaine T-C, Thomas MFM Mallitte, Jack Hamnett. A few others unnamed!

Summary of discussion: (Notes, ideas, further questions, conclusions, recommendations for actions to take, contact details of relevant people / organisations etc)

I (CJ) need to preface this by apologising if I missed the nuances of people’s comments – I was trying to keep up note-taking as fast as possible, but there was a lot of discussion!

General agreement – yes, the room is white, it often is, is it worse in Wales? If it is worse in Wales, do we know why? It is probably UK wide.

Some issue with theatre companies using communities in what could be considered exploitative ways – NTW has done this, e.g. Soul Exchange, De Gabay – but where are these communities afterwards?

We decided to go around the circle and introduce ourselves and explain what had brought us to the session.

Michelle – same realisation at the opening of day, same old faces as expected. Had hoped that it would be more open, that more community groups would be present. As an organisation Theatr Iolo wants to encourage writing from different communities, not sure how to go about it. So easy for companies to fall into the trap of ticking boxes.

Catriona – called the session because it is something that occurs to me in every room I am in, it’s something that needs to be acknowledged and addressed in every room. Always wondering whether the whiteness of the theatre community reflects Wales – only because I don’t work in schools, I don’t know what the demographics are. I suspect it is changing, so we need to change to keep pace with that.

Sarah – works a lot with young people. Working in England things are different – having POC in a cast is a good start and often standard there. Has encountered questions about quotas as a result, often uncomfortable discussion but worthwhile. Sees roles for POC in Wales as often tokenistic and the roles themselves (servant etc) raise questions.

Mari – spent time growing up in Japan, as mixed race person has experienced the other side of this, struggling to be accepted in japan. Not sure if she’ll stay to work in Wales after graduating.

Yvonne – it is a real problem in Wales. Actively practices blind casting, and feels unusual in Wales doing so. Sometimes feels like she is pushing a tanker on her own. Rare to have a non-white cast in Wales.

We have a digression about the continuing popularity of racist panto in Wales. As a nation we have a large BAME population, so where - for example – are the Somalian theatre companies?

Elke – interested in theatre generally, works with many people from migrant communities. Often language is a barrier to work, but one that can be circumvented. Doesn’t feel race is an issue within Cardiff but things change 20 miles outside.

Raidene – producer for a children’s theatre company. Was going to pose the question herself but didn’t want to have to be the one to do that, again. From Wales, but doesn’t work professionally in Wales now. Has to be compacted as an issue – sees racism in Wales and diversity in theatre as two different questions. How do we separate them? I.e. accept that racism exists everywhere and always will do, and have better conversations about diversity/inclusion in work/art – find a balance, look internationally for solutions.

Chelsey – wondering about allyship – how to be a good ally (without making it about herself), what is good casting practice. Where are the people? Where is the next generation of makers?

Mawgaine – as casting associate at NTW, casting is a particular focus for her. Who you put on stage, what other opportunities can you create, who is the lead artist, what is the perspective of the work. Recalls the controversy of the Music Theatre Wales “yellowface” casting from a while back, how dispiriting it was to feel that the conversation was still at that stage. The pool of available people is quite small – actors, technicians – and changes more slowly than the actual demographic of Wales.

Question: do we have any examples of people doing it well?

The other elephant in the room is the Welsh language agenda – the need to have inclusion there present challenges to diversity in casting. Some feeling that it can overtake discussion of diversity generally.

In making work, need to consider who is watching. Is it ok to present other cultures to a monocultural audience – yes it is. Touring schools – responsibility to present diverse art. Perhaps the question of whether someone is Welsh should be secondary.

Retention is an issue – POC leave Wales because opportunities don’t exist. RWCMD grads go to London. But the problem is also at a leadership level, e.g. the WMC, where the cleaning staff are predominately POC and the higher you get in the leadership strata the whiter it gets. We need to challenge the make-up of leadership, of boards of trustees. Challenge the argument/excuse that “where we are based isn’t diverse”.

It’s hard to lure RWCMD actors back from London. Often no funding provision to bring in actors from outside Wales to work. Needs to be a priority in budgeting shows – young people need to see it in order to believe that they can be it.

Accept that we work in a visual art form, that someone who looks like you may feel more of a connection with you as a result. Affirmative action is necessary, but it needs to be top to bottom change. The conversation needs to be non-binary, not just about black/white but consider intersectionality: all the different identities that we carry at the same time. We need to acknowledge multiplicity of identities in order to effect change.

Evaluation is helpful. To know where you are starting from as an organisation, so you can see where to go next. It is easy to worry as a white person that you may say or do the wrong thing. BUT this is a risk as a white person you need to accept – need to risk fuckiing up. The onus is on white people to be the ones to speak up about race. It cant always be the POC who also just wants to focus on making work.

We need to question why we tell the stories that we do. Organisations need to look at what stories they present. Fight the assumption that a white, heterosexual story is in any way neutral or universal. POC also need to be goven space to tell stories that aren’t just about not being white! White people seem only to want a certain type of story from POC – cite example of recent film Green Book, and the White Saviour narrative.

What about solutions? What are the ways we can change theatre in Wales?

Education from young age. Uptake at training level.

White led subsidy needs to change: those who make decisions about what gets funded need to change. Perhaps for year, no project led by white artists should get any funding. White artists may find that they don’t work any less, but underrepresented artists may get a look in. The change has to be radical, it’s been ignored for too long.

Defensiveness is an issue – organisations and leadership often entrenching and unwilling to admit when they fuck up.

It has to be ok to bring in people from outside Wales to make work – to inspire the next generation. There is an underlying presumption that Welsh = White. Some of the people present expressed a discomfort with the need to have Welsh lead artists because of that undercurrent – the whiteness of Welshness. The Welsh theatre scene can just be embarrassing.

Some frustration that talking about the future of Welsh theatre always seems to be a discussion about the past.

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